Why different phonotypes from same strain of same breeders seeds?

[Heavily Medicated]

After growing out several different strains of autos, I wonder why there are so many phenotype variations among seeds of the same strain, from the same breeder. Are the breeders just releasing new strains too early and not really having a pure breeding strain? Or have all autos just not developed to this point and it's just a matter of time? Just curious.

 

[Magic]

Its harder to breed autos because you cant clone or keep a mother plant. both are two things that help stablize strains with less generations with photos. some strains are under developed this is true but if you go to Dutch Passion, Sweet Seeds, Dragon Masters, Dinafem all excellent auto breeders you will see very stable genectics and only 1-2 phenos per strain. :Sharing One:

 

[evol]

I couldnt have said it better myself Magic.

 

[Muddy]

In his research Robert Connell Clarke documented 17 different phenotypes of wild ruderalis. Given that serious auto breeding has only been going on for about 6 - 7 years now, compared to almost 40 years for many photo strains, I think it's easy to understand why a lot of strains aren't 100% stable yet. As little as 2 years ago three phenos were common to most stains, the runt, the taller with a big main cola and minimal side branching and the bush. Most of the runts have been bred out and the better strains will usually show the other two phenos. Some breeders, like LBH with his Sour Diesel, are offering both short and tall phenos of the same strains. I think in a few more years we'll see auto strains that are nearly 100% stabilized as the breeders continue to work and refine their strains.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

It really isn't difficult to stabilize a strain. Especially for a breeder who's job it is to do so. 7 generations and almost all different phenotypes will be gone and only one will show. "True breeding".

Imo a strain with different pheno possibilities being common and not just a rare occurrence, are just crosses not true strains. A stable strain should be able to breed true. Anything less than f7 is just laziness on the breeder's part. Esp with auto's since it only takes about a year to do 3 full generations. A cross can be made into a stable strain within 3 years.

 

[Magic]

Which compared to photos its a lot more work. Photo you can make a cross clone the female the reverse it and you have a stable strain in two grows. 7 grows of multiple strains compared to a few plants and 2 grows to stabilize a strain would be considered harder in anyone's book. What you said is right hazy but its not as simple as your making it seem. What if you cross a auto and none of the first 50-100 females have the traits you are looking for? 7 generations can take a really long time if you don't have the means to grow 10+ strains at once just for breeding.yes auto breeders should have the means and the Time to do 7 generations but some do not and its not always a bad thing to have different phenotypes

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Which compared to photos its a lot more work. Photo you can make a cross clone the female the reverse it and you have a stable strain in two grows. 7 grows of multiple strains compared to a few plants and 2 grows to stabilize a strain would be considered harder in anyone's book. What you said is right hazy but its not as simple as your making it seem. What if you cross a auto and none of the first 50-100 females have the traits you are looking for? 7 generations can take a really long time if you don't have the means to grow 10+ strains at once just for breeding.

This is true, that photo's and backcrossing make stabilizing easier. However, you CAN save pollen from a parent and store it log enough to do several auto backcrosses with it which should help a little.

But in general, stabilizing takes time, and that's what a breeders job is. IMO a breeder selling unstable strains is like selling a chef selling raw food. Complete the job.

Other plant's like peppers and such are extremely scrutinized in terms of generation number, and also whether or not they were open pollinated or covered by nets to prevent bugs from accidentally crossing anything. Cannabis growers should have the same standards, esp considering how it is used medicinally and consistency is rather important.

ALso,a lot of photo's have multiple pheno's as well which causes people to go "pheno hunting". "Pheno hunting" should be nothing more than shopping for the right one. Not having to germinate dozens maybe hundreds of seeds that are all different. When someone wants a pepper plant that grows bumpy yellow super hot peppers, they don't have to grow out the entire packet of seeds and toss more than half beofre having a plant that looks and tastes as described. Not from a good breeder/seller anyway.

Not trying to sound too harsh or anything. I just think that it's time for people to start holding breeders to higher standards and expecting from them what people in other branches of the plant community expect from their breeders. (Branches.. plant community.. see what i did there?)

 

[Muddy]

I agree, some breeders could be doing a better job. But some strains are just very hard to stabilize. How long has White Widow been around and on many sites you will see a note that it's not 100% stable. I've grown it several times and have had about 3 different phenos every grow. So it's not always so straight forward as one might think. I've also seen some odd phenos pop up on autos that were otherwise stable. I'm no expert but it seems that some of those 17 different phenos are very recessive and still pop up once in awhile. One, in particular is very odd. I've seen it twice in my own grows and a couple of times on here. It's a very tall, leggy one that has very loose, sativa like buds. The yield is very poor and the THC content is low. Certainly not a desirable pheno. My old friend Nelson, may he rest in peace, had under taken a project to stabilize Mi5. If memory serves me, he worked it for 5 or 6 generations beyond what the breeder had done, so probably to F11 or 12 at least, and still couldn't get it 100% stable.

 

[Grey Bear]

We cannot forget the evolutionary design behind plants and animals that have developed to produce large amounts of eggs, seeds, or progeny, as cannabis does.
They usually tend have a high nutritional value to a large number of predators.
Success in reproduction requires prolific production and in many cases the ability to exploit new niches or to camouflage itself in novel ways.
The variations needed to exploit these niches can be almost too subtle to notice or range all the way to extreme.
Breeding can be done to homogenize strains, however , as muddy pointed out, it may take more than the f5 to f10 breeders seem to be content with when introducing strains.
And the adaptive evolutionary design will survive, so unless all successive seed are obtained from an original clone mother and clone father, the variations will begin to creep with each successive generation away from the original.

 

[hecno]

Well that's 1 question I don;t have to ask , as I also was wondering the same thing . :thank: